{"language": "en", "segments": [{"text": " Well hi and welcome to the famous Computer Cafe. This is Ellen Walker. And I'm", "start": 15.099999999999994, "stop": 20.36, "id": 0}, {"text": " Andy Velkoff and we're here to talk about personal computers and the world of", "start": 20.36, "stop": 24.1, "id": 1}, {"text": " technology. And today we have Steven Levy who is the author of a great book", "start": 24.1, "stop": 28.48, "id": 2}, {"text": " called Hackers. I want to tell you this is a great book. It's interesting and", "start": 28.48, "stop": 31.78, "id": 3}, {"text": " fascinating and Andy took it away from me and I'll never forgive him for it. And", "start": 31.78, "stop": 35.78, "id": 4}, {"text": " I'm not giving it back until I'm finished. It's a terrific book. It reads like a", "start": 35.78, "stop": 39.68, "id": 5}, {"text": " history of who, who from the hackers who started this", "start": 39.68, "stop": 43.22, "id": 6}, {"text": " whole industry. It's fascinating.", "start": 43.22, "stop": 44.74, "id": 7}, {"text": " So we're going to have a great show. So stay tuned. We'll be back after this", "start": 45.06, "stop": 48.6, "id": 8}, {"text": " message and you'll hear from Steven Levy who wrote Hackers.", "start": 48.6, "stop": 51.36, "id": 9}, {"text": " Word gets around fast. Word from Microsoft is quickly becoming a word processing", "start": 58.8, "stop": 63.82, "id": 10}, {"text": " program of choice because word is faster and easier. Most commands are executed", "start": 63.82, "stop": 68.96, "id": 11}, {"text": " in a single keystroke and with Microsoft's mouse not even a keystroke is needed.", "start": 68.96, "stop": 73.64, "id": 12}, {"text": " Just point and click. Would you like to reword that? Sure. If you've ever had to", "start": 73.64, "stop": 79.28, "id": 13}, {"text": " search through a 50 page document to change one word you can appreciate word's", "start": 79.28, "stop": 83.26, "id": 14}, {"text": " ability to search out and replace any character, number, word or phrase in any", "start": 83.26, "stop": 88.16, "id": 15}, {"text": " document just once or as many times as you like.", "start": 88.16, "stop": 91.28, "id": 16}, {"text": " Windows on the word. Word gives you eight windows that allows you to edit or", "start": 91.86, "stop": 95.62, "id": 17}, {"text": " compare different documents simultaneously or work on different areas of the same", "start": 95.62, "stop": 99.76, "id": 18}, {"text": " document all in one display.", "start": 99.76, "stop": 101.62, "id": 19}, {"text": " Get the word. Word is available at Software Supermarket 16200 Hawthorne Boulevard", "start": 101.62, "stop": 107.88, "id": 20}, {"text": " or call 213 207 1494. That's 213 207", "start": 107.88, "stop": 113.86, "id": 21}, {"text": " 1494. Get the word. That's Software Supermarket, a soft sell dealer.", "start": 113.86, "stop": 119.12, "id": 22}, {"text": " Well hi, this is Andy Velkoff and we're here at the famous Computer Cafe and with", "start": 131.68, "stop": 136.2, "id": 23}, {"text": " us is a very special guest. Steven Levy who is of course the author of Hackers,", "start": 136.2, "stop": 141.54, "id": 24}, {"text": " one of the major publications and major books in the area of personal computing", "start": 142.46, "stop": 147.3, "id": 25}, {"text": " in terms of the background and the people who really brought this industry into", "start": 147.3, "stop": 151.8, "id": 26}, {"text": " the fold. Steve, welcome to the cafe. Thanks Andy. Pleasure to be here. Now you,", "start": 151.8, "stop": 157.76, "id": 27}, {"text": " there's so many questions I have for you. I'm not sure where to begin but I'll", "start": 159.14, "stop": 163.0, "id": 28}, {"text": " just start at the beginning. How did you get involved in computers and high tech?", "start": 163.0, "stop": 168.94, "id": 29}, {"text": " What attracted you to it? I was a writer who had very little interest in", "start": 169.14, "stop": 174.86, "id": 30}, {"text": " technology and someone suggested that I do a story about these people called", "start": 174.86, "stop": 180.2, "id": 31}, {"text": " hackers. This was in 1981 and I knew that computers were some kind of coming", "start": 180.2, "stop": 186.8, "id": 32}, {"text": " thing and I thought maybe I should get interested in it and I began to look into", "start": 186.8, "stop": 190.26, "id": 33}, {"text": " it and was absolutely fascinated by not only the people who spent all their time", "start": 190.26, "stop": 195.46, "id": 34}, {"text": " on computers and did amazing things with them but also the whole surrounding", "start": 195.46, "stop": 201.12, "id": 35}, {"text": " world of technology is interesting because at the time a woman I lived with and I", "start": 201.12, "stop": 207.14, "id": 36}, {"text": " had been wondering whether to get word processors.", "start": 207.14, "stop": 209.34, "id": 37}, {"text": " She's a writer too and I had a real aversion to the idea of having those screens", "start": 209.84, "stop": 213.72, "id": 38}, {"text": " in my house but as soon as I saw these hackers in a way they loved their machines", "start": 213.72, "stop": 218.44, "id": 39}, {"text": " I said okay let's do it let's get the computers and within a couple weeks we were", "start": 218.44, "stop": 223.26, "id": 40}, {"text": " totally wired into the electronic cottage age.", "start": 223.26, "stop": 226.34, "id": 41}, {"text": " When you first got your computer what were you getting into? I mean spreadsheets", "start": 227.7, "stop": 231.2, "id": 42}, {"text": " or word processing or games or what? Well word processing was the main reason but", "start": 231.2, "stop": 237.0, "id": 43}, {"text": " characteristically and I think this points to an interesting gender reaction to", "start": 237.0, "stop": 243.36, "id": 44}, {"text": " computers. I started picking up games and all kinds of strange things and began", "start": 243.36, "stop": 248.92, "id": 45}, {"text": " to experiment where she pretty much stuck to the word processing and approached", "start": 248.92, "stop": 254.7, "id": 46}, {"text": " computers in a much more practical manner than I did. Well that's an interesting", "start": 254.7, "stop": 259.22, "id": 47}, {"text": " point. I hear statistics that the ratio of male users to female users that", "start": 259.22, "stop": 266.18, "id": 48}, {"text": " is computer users is something like three to one. I don't know if that's accurate", "start": 266.18, "stop": 270.6, "id": 49}, {"text": " but my personal experience tells me that more men and use computers than women", "start": 270.6, "stop": 277.02, "id": 50}, {"text": " do. What do you think that is caused by? I'm not sure if the question is male", "start": 277.02, "stop": 282.92, "id": 51}, {"text": " users compared to female users but I found when I was doing hackers is that I", "start": 282.92, "stop": 287.72, "id": 52}, {"text": " really had a very tough time finding any female hackers and I'm talking about", "start": 287.72, "stop": 293.52, "id": 53}, {"text": " people who purely computed just for the ride of computing in a test pilot", "start": 293.52, "stop": 299.8, "id": 54}, {"text": " sort of approach and some hackers told me that they", "start": 299.8, "stop": 306.64, "id": 55}, {"text": " don't know why it is but women often will not approach computers with that same", "start": 306.64, "stop": 313.08, "id": 56}, {"text": " spirit of adventure. In a sense I think they're more pragmatic towards computers", "start": 313.08, "stop": 318.56, "id": 57}, {"text": " that can be very good in programming them but they don't like the idea of sitting", "start": 318.56, "stop": 323.48, "id": 58}, {"text": " for hours and hours and hours and hours just to get something neat occurring from", "start": 323.48, "stop": 328.16, "id": 59}, {"text": " them. One hacker told me you know I think it's a hardware problem. Was he talking", "start": 328.16, "stop": 334.98, "id": 60}, {"text": " about the computers or the people? I won't let you answer that. Now in terms of", "start": 334.98, "stop": 340.66, "id": 61}, {"text": " the book it's a rather substantial book. I mean there are a lot of folks in the", "start": 340.66, "stop": 346.14, "id": 62}, {"text": " industry who've written articles and I know you have a couple of columns. You", "start": 346.14, "stop": 349.74, "id": 63}, {"text": " write for Rolling Stone, you write for Popular Computing but this is more than", "start": 349.74, "stop": 354.86, "id": 64}, {"text": " just putting a couple of articles together.", "start": 354.86, "stop": 357.42, "id": 65}, {"text": " This is a major work of pretty good size. You talk about a lot of people. As a", "start": 357.56, "stop": 363.74, "id": 66}, {"text": " matter of fact you have almost an index of who's who at the beginning. How", "start": 363.74, "stop": 368.3, "id": 67}, {"text": " did you go about researching the book?", "start": 368.3, "stop": 369.82, "id": 68}, {"text": " You're right. The reason why we did the who's who is because it is sort of like a", "start": 370.5, "stop": 374.72, "id": 69}, {"text": " Russian novel where you have these characters some of whom reappear. Others you", "start": 374.72, "stop": 380.32, "id": 70}, {"text": " might want to turn to the front of the book to remind yourself who is this guy.", "start": 380.32, "stop": 384.26, "id": 71}, {"text": " When I started my editor gave me this mandate that I want something to keep the", "start": 385.58, "stop": 390.82, "id": 72}, {"text": " reader going on. Originally I wasn't going to do the section about the MIT", "start": 390.82, "stop": 397.62, "id": 73}, {"text": " hackers, the very early ones. But as I started researching it and I guess I first", "start": 397.62, "stop": 403.1, "id": 74}, {"text": " started with the home brew people in the Silicon Valley from which the Apple and", "start": 403.1, "stop": 406.88, "id": 75}, {"text": " all that stuff came from. I realized the importance of the very first hackers at", "start": 406.88, "stop": 412.18, "id": 76}, {"text": " MIT who were very much akin to those test pilots that were the predecessors of", "start": 412.18, "stop": 417.72, "id": 77}, {"text": " the astronauts and I kept gravitating towards them.", "start": 417.72, "stop": 421.28, "id": 78}, {"text": " What was interesting is that when they started computers were very difficult to", "start": 422.24, "stop": 427.52, "id": 79}, {"text": " use. They were room size. You almost had to steal access to them and that's why", "start": 427.52, "stop": 432.64, "id": 80}, {"text": " hackers are kind of an outlaw culture because originally everything they did was", "start": 432.64, "stop": 436.5, "id": 81}, {"text": " unauthorized. I felt an epic sweep taking on as I did it. I mean it started off", "start": 436.5, "stop": 442.64, "id": 82}, {"text": " with these giant computers that filled rooms and these people were doing", "start": 442.64, "stop": 447.7, "id": 83}, {"text": " something totally alien to the great majority of the population and wound up with", "start": 447.7, "stop": 453.46, "id": 84}, {"text": " teenagers using computers in their bedroom which really weren't that much less", "start": 453.46, "stop": 457.22, "id": 85}, {"text": " powerful. So we really had something I mean it almost sounds as though you're", "start": 457.22, "stop": 462.78, "id": 86}, {"text": " talking about the right stuff. I mean going back to the Air Force bases in", "start": 462.78, "stop": 467.7, "id": 87}, {"text": " California and these guys in the very early days looking at early computers as a", "start": 467.7, "stop": 472.82, "id": 88}, {"text": " matter of fact I think as the book starts you're talking about people who were", "start": 472.82, "stop": 478.0, "id": 89}, {"text": " into model railroad clubs and talking about track switching and whatnot as early", "start": 478.0, "stop": 483.44, "id": 90}, {"text": " switching devices. Right a lot of the style of hackerism comes across from the", "start": 483.44, "stop": 490.06, "id": 91}, {"text": " electronics background that some of the people who first got into it and for", "start": 490.06, "stop": 493.74, "id": 92}, {"text": " people who are into electronics which again is a very logical system. Computers", "start": 493.74, "stop": 499.32, "id": 93}, {"text": " are the greatest thing in the world. What it is is a logical system is taken", "start": 499.32, "stop": 504.06, "id": 94}, {"text": " without limits. So when these guys who were the kinds of guys that grew up", "start": 504.06, "stop": 509.36, "id": 95}, {"text": " fiddling around with erector sets and shorting the electricity in the house by", "start": 509.36, "stop": 514.48, "id": 96}, {"text": " sticking paperclips into the plugs and the people who in the I guess late 40s and", "start": 514.48, "stop": 521.18, "id": 97}, {"text": " early 50s learned how to do tricks with the telephone and when they were exposed", "start": 521.18, "stop": 525.98, "id": 98}, {"text": " to something like a computer which they usually stumbled upon and stayed there", "start": 525.98, "stop": 531.16, "id": 99}, {"text": " until they were thrown out of the computer room that was the greatest thing in", "start": 531.16, "stop": 533.8, "id": 100}, {"text": " the world to them. They couldn't believe that this thing existed and they went", "start": 533.8, "stop": 537.06, "id": 101}, {"text": " about doing things with computers that no one had thought you could do with", "start": 537.06, "stop": 540.44, "id": 102}, {"text": " computers. Okay well we're gonna take a break right now when we come back Steve I", "start": 540.44, "stop": 544.64, "id": 103}, {"text": " like to talk about who are some of these people. I mean there's some names that", "start": 544.64, "stop": 548.04, "id": 104}, {"text": " we know but maybe there was some that that most of us hadn't heard of and these", "start": 548.04, "stop": 552.64, "id": 105}, {"text": " people who are influential in the development of personal computing. You're here", "start": 552.64, "stop": 557.36, "id": 106}, {"text": " at the famous computer cafe we're talking with Steve Levy who is the author of", "start": 557.36, "stop": 561.48, "id": 107}, {"text": " Hackers. This is Andy Velkoff we'll be right back after this. Stay tuned.", "start": 561.48, "stop": 565.18, "id": 108}, {"text": " Bank Street Rider by Broderbund is the one word processing program that is", "start": 575.54, "stop": 579.46, "id": 109}, {"text": " unpretentious enough to be used at home by both children and adults yet is", "start": 579.46, "stop": 583.6, "id": 110}, {"text": " sophisticated enough to meet most small business needs too. Bank Street Rider is", "start": 583.6, "stop": 588.38, "id": 111}, {"text": " packed with powerful features that have made it the most popular home word", "start": 588.38, "stop": 592.0, "id": 112}, {"text": " processing program in the world. There are no complex codes to memorize.", "start": 592.0, "stop": 596.36, "id": 113}, {"text": " Directions are at the top of the screen every step of the way. Bank Street Rider", "start": 597.22, "stop": 601.34, "id": 114}, {"text": " gives you sophisticated features like automatic word wrap, universal search and", "start": 601.34, "stop": 606.26, "id": 115}, {"text": " replace, automatic centering and easy storage and retrieval of anything you write", "start": 606.26, "stop": 610.78, "id": 116}, {"text": " complete with password protection.", "start": 610.78, "stop": 612.58, "id": 117}, {"text": " Bank Street Rider also comes complete with a special tutorial on the back of the", "start": 613.56, "stop": 617.0, "id": 118}, {"text": " disc that teaches the basics of word processing. A comprehensive reference manual", "start": 617.0, "stop": 621.58, "id": 119}, {"text": " and free backup disc are also included. Want to try your hand at Bank Street", "start": 621.58, "stop": 625.88, "id": 120}, {"text": " Rider then follow your feet down to Strictly Software at 14617.5 Prairie Avenue", "start": 625.88, "stop": 632.46, "id": 121}, {"text": " in Lawndale or you can call 213-970-1211.", "start": 632.46, "stop": 637.62, "id": 122}, {"text": " Strictly Software a SoftSill dealer. If Lotus had given you just one one a", "start": 639.02, "stop": 645.52, "id": 123}, {"text": " spreadsheet that's up to 50 times faster than other spreadsheets with every", "start": 645.52, "stop": 649.44, "id": 124}, {"text": " statistical and financial formula you'll ever need and the largest workspace on", "start": 649.44, "stop": 653.82, "id": 125}, {"text": " the market that would have been enough and if Lotus had given you just two two", "start": 653.82, "stop": 658.08, "id": 126}, {"text": " information management to store and organize information with the ability to", "start": 658.08, "stop": 662.68, "id": 127}, {"text": " cross index over 2,000 records by 32 criteria and use information from other", "start": 662.68, "stop": 668.14, "id": 128}, {"text": " programs and computer systems. That would have been enough and if Lotus had given", "start": 668.14, "stop": 672.3, "id": 129}, {"text": " you just three three graphics to graph information from your spreadsheet in less", "start": 672.3, "stop": 677.22, "id": 130}, {"text": " than two seconds and change that information touch a key and graph the new", "start": 677.22, "stop": 681.74, "id": 131}, {"text": " results instantly graphics as a thinking tool. That would have been enough but", "start": 681.74, "stop": 686.64, "id": 132}, {"text": " Lotus has given you more text editing tutorials a help key and a host of features", "start": 686.64, "stop": 692.1, "id": 133}, {"text": " which give Lotus 123 its power and simplicity. Lotus 123 is available at the", "start": 692.1, "stop": 697.52, "id": 134}, {"text": " Software Spot 10977 Santa Monica Boulevard in West Los Angeles or phone 213", "start": 697.52, "stop": 704.24, "id": 135}, {"text": "-477-7561 that's 213-477-7561. The", "start": 704.24, "stop": 711.22, "id": 136}, {"text": " Software Spot the oldest independently owned and operated software store in Los", "start": 711.22, "stop": 715.68, "id": 137}, {"text": " Angeles a SoftSill dealer. Well hi we're back this is", "start": 715.68, "stop": 722.66, "id": 138}, {"text": " Andy Velkoff and we're here at the famous Computer Cafe talking with Steve Levy", "start": 722.66, "stop": 726.42, "id": 139}, {"text": " the author of Hackers. Talking about the batch mentality you have a section in", "start": 726.42, "stop": 731.24, "id": 140}, {"text": " the book where you talk about the experience of the early programmers who would", "start": 731.24, "stop": 735.06, "id": 141}, {"text": " deliver their cards to the people who were using the computers I guess at MIT and", "start": 735.06, "stop": 741.4, "id": 142}, {"text": " it seems like a religious ritualistic right where these people would deliver the", "start": 741.4, "stop": 746.36, "id": 143}, {"text": " cards as if it were a sacrifice and so the prey that they would get an answer", "start": 746.36, "stop": 750.46, "id": 144}, {"text": " that things wouldn't screw up and that the computer would do what it was supposed", "start": 750.46, "stop": 753.66, "id": 145}, {"text": " to do. Right well whereas it was a religious right it was certainly hollow", "start": 753.66, "stop": 757.52, "id": 146}, {"text": " because there was no spirit behind it. One programmer on Hacker at MIT", "start": 757.52, "stop": 762.66, "id": 147}, {"text": " was in a panic because he had signed up for a loan which required him", "start": 762.66, "stop": 769.6, "id": 148}, {"text": " to join the Navy after he graduated from MIT and he did anything he could", "start": 769.6, "stop": 776.48, "id": 149}, {"text": " to get out of it because he knew that in his program he was at the Navy he would", "start": 776.48, "stop": 780.18, "id": 150}, {"text": " use this batch process univac computer in a room so stifling that you would never", "start": 780.18, "stop": 785.92, "id": 151}, {"text": " get to actually see the computer run and one person who had been submitting these", "start": 785.92, "stop": 790.12, "id": 152}, {"text": " cards for a year one woman my story went finally got to see her program run on", "start": 790.12, "stop": 795.8, "id": 153}, {"text": " the computer and she saw all the lights and all the tapes whirling and it was so", "start": 795.8, "stop": 799.88, "id": 154}, {"text": " exciting that she fainted and this person said there is no way I'm going to work", "start": 799.88, "stop": 805.2, "id": 155}, {"text": " on a computer room like this I cannot live without my PDP-6 at MIT so he got out", "start": 805.2, "stop": 811.06, "id": 156}, {"text": " of it. There's something I mean I think we all love people once in a while who", "start": 811.06, "stop": 816.38, "id": 157}, {"text": " have such righteous and passionate feelings about their intelligence and about", "start": 816.38, "stop": 820.74, "id": 158}, {"text": " their sense of creativity who are some of the other people who were involved in", "start": 820.74, "stop": 825.3, "id": 159}, {"text": " the early hacking days? Well the fellow I just mentioned was a fellow named Bill", "start": 825.3, "stop": 829.18, "id": 160}, {"text": " Gosper and he was a fellow who liked to do mathematical explorations on the", "start": 829.18, "stop": 833.24, "id": 161}, {"text": " computer and he would sit around the console this PDP-6 this mainframe computer", "start": 833.24, "stop": 837.7, "id": 162}, {"text": " which at that time wasn't time shared and meaning he had total control of this", "start": 837.7, "stop": 842.64, "id": 163}, {"text": " computer and people would gather around him he would be like Horowitz at the", "start": 842.64, "stop": 846.1, "id": 164}, {"text": " piano keyboard and they'd watch him do amazing things and when he sometimes made", "start": 846.1, "stop": 850.88, "id": 165}, {"text": " a typing error he would see that as a window into something interesting and he", "start": 850.88, "stop": 854.78, "id": 166}, {"text": " would take off from that the kind of Bach improvising another fellow was named", "start": 854.78, "stop": 860.1, "id": 167}, {"text": " Richard Greenblatt and he was a fellow who may not have believed in traditional", "start": 860.1, "stop": 866.14, "id": 168}, {"text": " personal hygiene because he would just stay in the computer room for weeks and", "start": 866.14, "stop": 869.82, "id": 169}, {"text": " weeks and weeks but he did amazing things with a computer and at one point one", "start": 869.82, "stop": 876.28, "id": 170}, {"text": " researcher at a think tank postulated that a computer would never play a game of", "start": 876.28, "stop": 880.56, "id": 171}, {"text": " chess good enough to beat a ten-year-old and Greenblatt took offense at this and", "start": 880.56, "stop": 885.38, "id": 172}, {"text": " within a week he had programmed the computer to play a game of chess and he", "start": 885.38, "stop": 889.46, "id": 173}, {"text": " polished up the program and that game of chess that program called MacHack", "start": 889.46, "stop": 893.74, "id": 174}, {"text": " actually beat that researcher in a public match. That's quite", "start": 893.74, "stop": 900.7, "id": 175}, {"text": " you know my sense for for hackers and the people in the book is that they love", "start": 900.7, "stop": 906.88, "id": 176}, {"text": " challenges they love the challenge of dealing with the machine or of", "start": 906.88, "stop": 912.46, "id": 177}, {"text": " accomplishing something or designing something. What", "start": 912.46, "stop": 915.12, "id": 178}, {"text": " were some of the other people that you ran into?", "start": 915.12, "stop": 916.68, "id": 179}, {"text": " Well some of the more well-known people are people like Steve Wozniak but I", "start": 918.64, "stop": 923.02, "id": 180}, {"text": " really delighted in finding people who were significant whose names aren't", "start": 923.02, "stop": 926.34, "id": 181}, {"text": " household words. One group of people we talk about during the break people who", "start": 926.34, "stop": 932.78, "id": 182}, {"text": " maybe aren't significant but were certainly characteristic in the way a computer", "start": 932.78, "stop": 937.62, "id": 183}, {"text": " can take you over a couple named the Boxes. Now Bob Box was a jockey he was", "start": 937.62, "stop": 944.54, "id": 184}, {"text": " a man of maybe four feet in stature but physical stature he had a computer", "start": 944.54, "stop": 951.52, "id": 185}, {"text": " stature which was extraordinary and he and his wife lived in this little town", "start": 951.52, "stop": 956.58, "id": 186}, {"text": " called Coorsgold, California and when a software factory in the eighties moved in", "start": 956.58, "stop": 960.86, "id": 187}, {"text": " there they thought let's get into this and as it turned out Carol in particular", "start": 960.86, "stop": 965.58, "id": 188}, {"text": " had a propensity for computing she said it sounded like when she worked on the", "start": 965.58, "stop": 969.46, "id": 189}, {"text": " computer voices talked to her it was a language which she understood all her life", "start": 969.46, "stop": 975.12, "id": 190}, {"text": " and these people who had most recently been gold prospectors as a matter of fact", "start": 975.12, "stop": 981.36, "id": 191}, {"text": " both of them hold Guinness World Records in panning for gold wound up writing a", "start": 981.36, "stop": 987.42, "id": 192}, {"text": " best-selling educational program for the Apple computer. Hacking can", "start": 987.42, "stop": 993.18, "id": 193}, {"text": " strike any time in life I guess.", "start": 993.18, "stop": 994.78, "id": 194}, {"text": " That's right where you could go from from digging for gold for striking gold with", "start": 995.26, "stop": 999.6, "id": 195}, {"text": " with computers. We're going to take another break right now and when we come back", "start": 999.6, "stop": 1003.0, "id": 196}, {"text": " I'd like to talk more about these people and also how", "start": 1003.0, "stop": 1005.74, "id": 197}, {"text": " do you research a book like this?", "start": 1005.74, "stop": 1007.26, "id": 198}, {"text": " I mean you know the book reads to me as if you were right there and the style as", "start": 1007.64, "stop": 1013.82, "id": 199}, {"text": " I mentioned to you before we get on the air it reads almost like fiction in terms", "start": 1013.82, "stop": 1019.06, "id": 200}, {"text": " of its flow and its pacing and everything. I really loved it although I must", "start": 1019.06, "stop": 1024.44, "id": 201}, {"text": " confess I'm not finished with it yet but how do you research and how do you get", "start": 1024.44, "stop": 1029.4, "id": 202}, {"text": " all the stories and how do you get people to give you all that kind of", "start": 1029.4, "stop": 1032.36, "id": 203}, {"text": " information because I know it's a challenge being in that business myself. Well", "start": 1032.36, "stop": 1037.08, "id": 204}, {"text": " we're at the famous computer cafe this is Andy Velkoff and we're talking with", "start": 1037.08, "stop": 1040.6, "id": 205}, {"text": " Steven Levy the author of Hackers. We'll be back right after this. Stay tuned.", "start": 1040.6, "stop": 1045.32, "id": 206}, {"text": " Start with the world's best-selling database system. Give it enhanced features to", "start": 1057.3, "stop": 1061.76, "id": 207}, {"text": " make it faster more powerful and easier to use and you have the makings of a", "start": 1061.76, "stop": 1066.08, "id": 208}, {"text": " software heavyweight. D-BASE 3. Ashton Tate's hot new package for your 16-bit PC.", "start": 1066.08, "stop": 1071.84, "id": 209}, {"text": " With D-BASE 3 you can create records with up to 128 fields access 10 files at", "start": 1072.7, "stop": 1078.46, "id": 210}, {"text": " once and run other programs like communications or word processing without", "start": 1078.46, "stop": 1082.44, "id": 211}, {"text": " leaving D-BASE 3. You can read non-D-BASE files from other software programs or", "start": 1082.44, "stop": 1087.38, "id": 212}, {"text": " mainframe databases and you can easily convert your D-BASE 2 files and programs", "start": 1087.38, "stop": 1091.92, "id": 213}, {"text": " to D-BASE 3. If you get stuck help is at your fingertips with multiple help", "start": 1091.92, "stop": 1096.88, "id": 214}, {"text": " screens. And where do you go to see this powerful new program?", "start": 1096.88, "stop": 1100.3, "id": 215}, {"text": " Go see David and Betty Sun at Sun Computers in the City of Carson. They'll tell", "start": 1100.3, "stop": 1105.5, "id": 216}, {"text": " you what you need to know about D-BASE 3 and more. Sun Computers is located at", "start": 1105.5, "stop": 1110.84, "id": 217}, {"text": " 20925 South Benita in Carson or call 213-538", "start": 1110.84, "stop": 1116.42, "id": 218}, {"text": "-8338. That's 213-538-8338. Sun", "start": 1116.42, "stop": 1123.34, "id": 219}, {"text": " Computers in Carson, a softcell dealer.", "start": 1123.34, "stop": 1126.08, "id": 220}, {"text": " Today I'd like to discuss Multiplan by Microsoft. What's a Multiplan? It's a", "start": 1126.92, "stop": 1132.16, "id": 221}, {"text": " spreadsheet program for your IBM PC or your Macintosh. Well what do you do with a", "start": 1132.16, "stop": 1136.78, "id": 222}, {"text": " Multiplan? Use it to make forecasts. Oh you mean like what the weather will be?", "start": 1136.78, "stop": 1141.44, "id": 223}, {"text": " No more like weather or not. Oh can I join Multiplan? No you don't join it silly.", "start": 1141.74, "stop": 1147.32, "id": 224}, {"text": " You use it. It's a tool designed with non-computer people in mind to help you", "start": 1147.66, "stop": 1152.08, "id": 225}, {"text": " manage your business and plan for the future.", "start": 1152.08, "stop": 1153.94, "id": 226}, {"text": " A tool? Oh you mean like a hammer? Well if you're looking for a way to hit the", "start": 1153.94, "stop": 1158.76, "id": 227}, {"text": " nail on the head, use Multiplan to build your worksheet. Enter the formulas you", "start": 1158.76, "stop": 1163.28, "id": 228}, {"text": " normally use to do budgets or cash flow analysis or financial planning and then", "start": 1163.28, "stop": 1167.88, "id": 229}, {"text": " let Multiplan do the calculations while you sit back and", "start": 1167.88, "stop": 1170.78, "id": 230}, {"text": " watch. Well where can I see it?", "start": 1170.78, "stop": 1172.74, "id": 231}, {"text": " Well hi we're back. This is Andy Velkoff and we're here at the famous Computer", "start": 1191.8600000000001, "stop": 1195.82, "id": 232}, {"text": " Cafe talking with Steven Levy, the author of Hackers. Steve, the book, you know,", "start": 1195.82, "stop": 1201.66, "id": 233}, {"text": " you talk about it. You [...] about it. You talk about it. You talk about it. You", "start": 1201.96, "stop": 1202.72, "id": 234}, {"text": " You talk about it. You talk about it. You talk about a lot of different people.", "start": 1202.72, "stop": 1204.16, "id": 235}, {"text": " You talk about experiences going back to the 50s and really tracing it.", "start": 1204.42, "stop": 1208.38, "id": 236}, {"text": " But it doesn't read like a dry factual account of, well, and in this year", "start": 1209.22, "stop": 1215.92, "id": 237}, {"text": " such and such computer came out.", "start": 1215.92, "stop": 1217.66, "id": 238}, {"text": " IBM did this and then Xerox did this, etc. It reads in a way as if you talk with", "start": 1217.82, "stop": 1224.46, "id": 239}, {"text": " a lot of people and you got a lot of different stories", "start": 1224.46, "stop": 1227.44, "id": 240}, {"text": " and you must have made a ton of notes.", "start": 1227.44, "stop": 1229.04, "id": 241}, {"text": " What was it like and really how did you start doing it?", "start": 1229.82, "stop": 1232.36, "id": 242}, {"text": " Well, it was a two-year project and the most important thing is to win the", "start": 1233.6599999999999, "stop": 1240.36, "id": 243}, {"text": " trust of the people you're talking to.", "start": 1240.36, "stop": 1242.2, "id": 244}, {"text": " Don't be in a hurry to do the interviews. Just sit down and", "start": 1243.58, "stop": 1246.3, "id": 245}, {"text": " talk and talk and talk and talk.", "start": 1246.3, "stop": 1247.8, "id": 246}, {"text": " When someone tells you one version of a story, then talk to every other person", "start": 1248.22, "stop": 1251.76, "id": 247}, {"text": " mentioned in the story in order to get their side and then call back the first", "start": 1251.76, "stop": 1256.82, "id": 248}, {"text": " person and say, well, so and so said this.", "start": 1256.82, "stop": 1259.28, "id": 249}, {"text": " There was one story I'm thinking of that occurred, oh, it must have been 1962 or", "start": 1259.28, "stop": 1264.92, "id": 250}, {"text": " something, where some people in an informal group at MIT called the Midnight", "start": 1264.92, "stop": 1268.92, "id": 251}, {"text": " Computer Wiring Society went out and made an adjustment to the computer, which", "start": 1268.92, "stop": 1274.94, "id": 252}, {"text": " was totally beyond the pale.", "start": 1274.94, "stop": 1279.02, "id": 253}, {"text": " You picture college freshmen going into a multi-million dollar computing and", "start": 1279.34, "stop": 1283.5, "id": 254}, {"text": " rewiring it because they thought they wanted to add some instructions to it.", "start": 1283.5, "stop": 1287.52, "id": 255}, {"text": " Well, this wasn't a prank. This was something", "start": 1287.52, "stop": 1291.12, "id": 256}, {"text": " they felt the computer could do better.", "start": 1291.12, "stop": 1292.78, "id": 257}, {"text": " I mean, it may not have been authorized, but they were doing this because", "start": 1292.88, "stop": 1295.62, "id": 258}, {"text": " they thought it would improve the system, right?", "start": 1295.62, "stop": 1297.28, "id": 259}, {"text": " Of course. They looked at the computer and they thought it could", "start": 1297.7, "stop": 1299.66, "id": 260}, {"text": " benefit from these improvements.", "start": 1299.66, "stop": 1301.18, "id": 261}, {"text": " So as hackers quite often do, they will not check to find out if", "start": 1301.94, "stop": 1305.26, "id": 262}, {"text": " they can do it. They will go ahead and do it.", "start": 1305.26, "stop": 1306.78, "id": 263}, {"text": " So they crept in the middle of the night, they ripped up the computer apart, they", "start": 1307.18, "stop": 1310.32, "id": 264}, {"text": " rewired it, and they ran some programs that they", "start": 1310.32, "stop": 1313.66, "id": 265}, {"text": " devised on it and were very happy with it.", "start": 1313.66, "stop": 1315.6, "id": 266}, {"text": " They didn't check to find out if it would run one particular program on it, which", "start": 1315.6, "stop": 1321.2, "id": 267}, {"text": " some people who are non-hackers often use.", "start": 1321.2, "stop": 1323.84, "id": 268}, {"text": " And the next day, some people who were authorized to use the computers for some", "start": 1324.3, "stop": 1328.4, "id": 269}, {"text": " very serious projects came in.", "start": 1328.4, "stop": 1331.44, "id": 270}, {"text": " And this one woman in particular was running this very big forecasting program,", "start": 1332.0, "stop": 1337.48, "id": 271}, {"text": " and the computer just absolutely almost blew up when", "start": 1337.56, "stop": 1342.02, "id": 272}, {"text": " she ran it. It just went dead.", "start": 1342.02, "stop": 1343.52, "id": 273}, {"text": " And she eventually reported this, and some of the hackers got", "start": 1343.52, "stop": 1347.56, "id": 274}, {"text": " into some trouble with it.", "start": 1347.56, "stop": 1349.06, "id": 275}, {"text": " Well, I had heard this story from various people, and finally I called up this", "start": 1349.44, "stop": 1353.12, "id": 276}, {"text": " woman, asking her about this time that she used the computer 25", "start": 1353.12, "stop": 1356.66, "id": 277}, {"text": " years ago when the computer crashed.", "start": 1356.66, "stop": 1358.3, "id": 278}, {"text": " And she was, to put it mildly, astounded that someone would call her about this", "start": 1358.92, "stop": 1362.7, "id": 279}, {"text": " incident way back in the past, but actually she was able to recall something like", "start": 1362.7, "stop": 1367.06, "id": 280}, {"text": " that and actually told me some pretty interesting things about some of the", "start": 1367.06, "stop": 1369.94, "id": 281}, {"text": " stranger hackers back then.", "start": 1369.94, "stop": 1371.72, "id": 282}, {"text": " So is that what's referred to as the good old early days?", "start": 1371.72, "stop": 1375.34, "id": 283}, {"text": " Yeah, in some ways they weren't so good, but in many ways it was a golden age for", "start": 1376.46, "stop": 1380.94, "id": 284}, {"text": " the hackers, because they can go anywhere.", "start": 1380.94, "stop": 1382.84, "id": 285}, {"text": " They were working on totally untested ground.", "start": 1383.0, "stop": 1384.72, "id": 286}, {"text": " Well, we've talked about some people who a lot of us had not heard about before,", "start": 1385.84, "stop": 1390.04, "id": 287}, {"text": " but let's get to some of the more well-known folks, like Wozniak. What were the", "start": 1390.12, "stop": 1394.18, "id": 288}, {"text": " origins of that? Where did he come from?", "start": 1394.18, "stop": 1396.52, "id": 289}, {"text": " He came from the Silicon Valley, born in the computer USA.", "start": 1396.52, "stop": 1401.24, "id": 290}, {"text": " Steve is one of those people who just absolutely took to computing instantly.", "start": 1402.86, "stop": 1409.16, "id": 291}, {"text": " We had a thing called the Hacker Conference around the time the book came out,", "start": 1409.36, "stop": 1414.02, "id": 292}, {"text": " where a lot of the people who were in the book got together, and it was great to", "start": 1414.08, "stop": 1417.76, "id": 293}, {"text": " see because you had three generations of hackers all getting together.", "start": 1417.76, "stop": 1421.02, "id": 294}, {"text": " One person compared the urge to hacking like a baby duck, seeing something moving", "start": 1421.02, "stop": 1427.46, "id": 295}, {"text": " and following it, the way a baby duck is infinite on his mother.", "start": 1427.46, "stop": 1430.62, "id": 296}, {"text": " Steve was one of those people he was sending away for computer catalogs when", "start": 1431.54, "stop": 1435.52, "id": 297}, {"text": " he was still in junior high school.", "start": 1435.52, "stop": 1437.02, "id": 298}, {"text": " He and one of his friends, who I had a couple of good interviews with,", "start": 1437.48, "stop": 1442.44, "id": 299}, {"text": " decided they would design their own computer.", "start": 1443.44, "stop": 1445.18, "id": 300}, {"text": " They did various computers, the soda pop computer and all kinds of things,", "start": 1445.18, "stop": 1451.42, "id": 301}, {"text": " until one of the computers he eventually designed, when he was a little farther", "start": 1452.22, "stop": 1455.98, "id": 302}, {"text": " along, turned out to be the Apple.", "start": 1455.98, "stop": 1458.24, "id": 303}, {"text": " Wow, and that was the beginnings of Apple then?", "start": 1459.38, "stop": 1462.18, "id": 304}, {"text": " Well, the beginnings of Apple literally was Steve Wozniak designing a board", "start": 1462.96, "stop": 1467.34, "id": 305}, {"text": " called the Apple One, and Steve Jobs helping him stuff the chips on the board and", "start": 1467.34, "stop": 1472.96, "id": 306}, {"text": " getting computer stores to buy this thing.", "start": 1472.96, "stop": 1476.4, "id": 307}, {"text": " And then, of course, we had things like you talk about Homebrew in the", "start": 1477.82, "stop": 1482.38, "id": 308}, {"text": " book. Tell us a little bit about Homebrew.", "start": 1482.38, "stop": 1484.4, "id": 309}, {"text": " The Homebrew Computer Club was a meeting of, I guess it was biweekly at that", "start": 1485.12, "stop": 1492.04, "id": 310}, {"text": " point, in the Silicon Valley, of people who had the bizarre idea that they wanted", "start": 1492.04, "stop": 1496.56, "id": 311}, {"text": " to build their own computers.", "start": 1496.56, "stop": 1498.08, "id": 312}, {"text": " When was this, in terms of timing?", "start": 1499.96, "stop": 1501.52, "id": 313}, {"text": " This was in the mid-70s. There was one kit that you could buy, and it was a", "start": 1501.84, "stop": 1506.24, "id": 314}, {"text": " pretty revolutionary thing called the Altair, but it didn't do anything. So", "start": 1506.24, "stop": 1511.04, "id": 315}, {"text": " almost out of necessity, these people had to band together to figure out all the", "start": 1511.04, "stop": 1515.54, "id": 316}, {"text": " weird problems that would spring up when you built your own computer, either from", "start": 1515.54, "stop": 1520.02, "id": 317}, {"text": " these kits or from various parts, and they would congregate in the various", "start": 1520.02, "stop": 1523.58, "id": 318}, {"text": " electronic junk shops of the Silicon Valley and swap", "start": 1523.58, "stop": 1527.5, "id": 319}, {"text": " information about this chip or that.", "start": 1527.5, "stop": 1529.14, "id": 320}, {"text": " A lot of the information was kind of proprietary information from some of the", "start": 1529.44, "stop": 1532.36, "id": 321}, {"text": " companies they might have worked for at the side, and they really weren't very", "start": 1532.36, "stop": 1538.14, "id": 322}, {"text": " respectful of some of the intellectual property rights of other people, because", "start": 1538.14, "stop": 1544.5, "id": 323}, {"text": " they believed it was more important to get the information", "start": 1544.5, "stop": 1547.36, "id": 324}, {"text": " in order to get these computers running.", "start": 1547.36, "stop": 1548.94, "id": 325}, {"text": " And a lot of companies, besides Apple, also sprung from this Homebrew club, which", "start": 1548.94, "stop": 1553.9, "id": 326}, {"text": " was moderated by a fellow named Lee Felsenstein, who later designed the Osborne,", "start": 1553.9, "stop": 1556.96, "id": 327}, {"text": " and that really turned out to be the beginnings", "start": 1557.64, "stop": 1559.66, "id": 328}, {"text": " of the personal computer industry.", "start": 1559.66, "stop": 1561.16, "id": 329}, {"text": " And it set a kind of irreverent style for the personal computer industry, which", "start": 1562.0, "stop": 1566.84, "id": 330}, {"text": " is held on almost until now, but it's kind of going away now.", "start": 1566.84, "stop": 1571.58, "id": 331}, {"text": " And then, do these groups still exist? I mean,", "start": 1573.4599999999998, "stop": 1577.18, "id": 332}, {"text": " is there still such a thing as a Homebrew?", "start": 1577.56, "stop": 1579.18, "id": 333}, {"text": " There still is the Homebrew, but it's much different. You don't need that kind of", "start": 1579.78, "stop": 1583.72, "id": 334}, {"text": " help now when you're using a home computer.", "start": 1583.72, "stop": 1587.24, "id": 335}, {"text": " First of all, you don't have to build them. They buy them ready-made.", "start": 1587.68, "stop": 1590.84, "id": 336}, {"text": " Second of all, there's a lot of support, either in any number of computer books", "start": 1591.38, "stop": 1595.94, "id": 337}, {"text": " or users groups, which are probably the inheritor of that kind of mantle. A lot", "start": 1595.94, "stop": 1601.64, "id": 338}, {"text": " of people find a lot of good information about how to use their computers from", "start": 1601.64, "stop": 1605.4, "id": 339}, {"text": " joining a local users group, and you still get a little bit of that democratic", "start": 1605.4, "stop": 1608.56, "id": 340}, {"text": " spirit from some of these users groups.", "start": 1608.56, "stop": 1610.24, "id": 341}, {"text": " Okay. Well, you know, I see the time is getting a little bit late, and there's", "start": 1612.9600000000003, "stop": 1617.54, "id": 342}, {"text": " still loads of things I'd love to ask you.", "start": 1617.54, "stop": 1619.76, "id": 343}, {"text": " Do you think you might be able to come back tomorrow with us here at the cafe, so", "start": 1619.98, "stop": 1622.96, "id": 344}, {"text": " we can pick up where we leave off?", "start": 1622.96, "stop": 1624.64, "id": 345}, {"text": " Sure. You know, you'll put a hotel room aside", "start": 1624.64, "stop": 1627.6, "id": 346}, {"text": " for me, and I'll hang around until tomorrow, all right?", "start": 1627.6, "stop": 1629.32, "id": 347}, {"text": " Well, we'll put you up at the famous computer hotel. How's that?", "start": 1629.46, "stop": 1632.34, "id": 348}, {"text": " Fine. Fine. Terminal's in every room.", "start": 1632.82, "stop": 1634.38, "id": 349}, {"text": " Absolutely. Absolutely. We're here at the famous computer cafe. This is Andy", "start": 1634.84, "stop": 1639.12, "id": 350}, {"text": " Velkoff, and we've been talking with Steven Levy about hackers, about hackers in", "start": 1639.12, "stop": 1643.96, "id": 351}, {"text": " general, and about his book of the same name, which", "start": 1643.96, "stop": 1646.02, "id": 352}, {"text": " is published on what, Doubleday?", "start": 1646.02, "stop": 1647.66, "id": 353}, {"text": " Doubleday Anchor Press.", "start": 1648.12, "stop": 1648.98, "id": 354}, {"text": " And the book is available in hardcover, and is that true?", "start": 1648.98, "stop": 1655.5, "id": 355}, {"text": " Yes.", "start": 1656.04, "stop": 1656.12, "id": 356}, {"text": " Okay. So you can pick it up at your local bookstores. It's a terrific book.", "start": 1657.04, "stop": 1660.44, "id": 357}, {"text": " Steve's going to be back tomorrow, and we'll talk more about hackers and then", "start": 1660.96, "stop": 1663.62, "id": 358}, {"text": " some other things I'd like to ask him.", "start": 1663.62, "stop": 1665.18, "id": 359}, {"text": " So stay tuned. We have a couple more things coming up", "start": 1665.56, "stop": 1668.54, "id": 360}, {"text": " after this message. Stay tuned.", "start": 1668.54, "stop": 1670.08, "id": 361}, {"text": " SuperCalc 3 by Sorsum is a spreadsheet that's extremely easy to use, swift, and", "start": 1688.3, "stop": 1693.04, "id": 362}, {"text": " powerful, and it's priced lower than most other leading spreadsheet programs.", "start": 1693.04, "stop": 1697.1, "id": 363}, {"text": " SuperCalc 3 has all the built-in functions expected in a high-quality", "start": 1698.12, "stop": 1701.58, "id": 364}, {"text": " spreadsheet, and a lot more.", "start": 1701.58, "stop": 1703.3, "id": 365}, {"text": " SuperCalc 3's features include an on-screen help function, spreadsheet", "start": 1704.1399999999999, "stop": 1708.1, "id": 366}, {"text": " consolidation, and sorting capability,", "start": 1708.1, "stop": 1709.96, "id": 367}]}